Early Christian Wisdom › Forums › Past discussions on Origen › Dialog towards the true belief › 3. The Nature of the Soul
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July 20, 2004 at 12:00 am #1268Shawn T MurphyParticipant
Edward, from our earlier discussions I gather that you understood Origen’s view on the nature soul in this way? Each soul was created by God and through Jesus. After a long time of harmony in Heaven, the souls became restless or bored and fell from God (died). Each soul must engage in a path of restoration in order to return its original birthplace; Heaven. This path of restoration could include the soul spending time incarnated in the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms; but that depends on the amount guilt that the soul has accumulated, or its distance from God.
Each soul goes through multiple lives on Earth in human form, slowly relearning its original divinity. This is a slow and long process. Only since Jesus’ act of Redemption, it is now possible for souls at the end of this process to re-enter the Kingdom of God.
July 26, 2004 at 12:00 am #1423Edward MooreParticipantShawn, it seems that I was not clear enough in explaining Origen’s view on the nature of the soul, for which I apologize. Allow me to make amends by offering a clearer explanation.
First, all souls were created by God through CHRIST (distinguished from the soul of Jesus, which Christ would later assume for the purpose of effecting our salvation). Each soul was unique, though equal to every other in its proximity to God. At a certain point, souls began to grow bored (literally, as Origen says, “grow cold” [psukhesthai], a play on the Greek words for cold and soul [psukhe]) and fell away from God. The only soul that remained with God was the soul of Jesus, who was taken on by Christ in the Incarnation.
While Origen did believe in multiple incarnation of souls, until their guilt was erased and they were worthy to return to God, he did not believe — as did the Neopythagoreans, for example — that particularly vile souls would end up in animal or plant bodies. He argued that if a rational, human soul were to enter an irrational animal body, then the possibility for rational assent to the saving grace of God would disappear. In this he was following the Middle Platonist Cronius, who argued the same thing some time earlier.
Origen believed that this cosmos was created by God in response to the fall of souls, to serve as a sort of training ground in their re-attainment of proximity to God. But we must remember that, due to their freedom, the souls are capable of creating unique lives for themselves here, and of creating a history that is unique to themselves, and independent of God. The union of the divine and the human in Christ prefigures the union of human historical existence and divine atemporality in the apokatastasis.
August 1, 2004 at 12:00 am #1421Andrew McCarthyParticipantIt is hard for me to speculate on many topics. It just goes against my training in neurology. It must make sense to me, must have some order or system, and if it cannot be systematized, in the proper way…..then I must stop my speculation.
Tomorrow morning I teach the residents how to do a neurological exam. It is a wonderful tool to localize pathology and lesions. It is methodical & mechanical …much as a car mechanic can find pathology. …. As the car mechanic, I can tell you where the problem is and how to deal with it….. but I can’t tell you where the energy comes from or what a gift it is to move freely or think freely…….that is why I actually hate to say I am a neurologist because it implies I have this great wisdom…when I am just a mechanic though a very good one…. how about an engineer?? what can he honestly say???
Where I earn my living is partly with my skill above but I also need to care about that patient and that problem and it is different for every pt I have seen though quite similar in style. The question always arises…when does close count? I think it counts in caring about everyone…that they are at least as confused as you are about life…
…the irony of life is the more you think you know the less you really know…the more you explain things…the deeper the perplexing issues become…the more sure you have found the answer the deeper into delusion you have gone
modern psychology is much like old philosophy with many levels or souls …. we have the intellect soul and the emotional soul and the athletic soul and the soul that desires physical bonding and the soul that contemplates etc etc
Such an approach bothers me…perhaps it shouldn’t but it does.
A modern scientist says aha that PET scan lights up in the so and so when you think about the word soul and it lights up in the so and so when you think about the word heart….they are separate
I must ask…. what makes those spots light up…what determines it so…simply the brain itself in some autoregulation……..if that is the answer,,,is there no concern? How can something cause itself to move without any 1st cause????
I cannot say what the soul is but I do think it is a unitary immaterial thing that somehow causes the brain to light up for memory for movement for love……we decide what we wish to light up…that is our free will …trapped in a body with various strengths and weaknesses…that is our prison….that is all I can say in a logical way about my soul…I think what I say does hold some logic, I hope
that is enough for me…..no scientist can debate what I say unless he simply believes that the brain moves itself…but I could then say perhaps it is not the brain but the tooth fairy…both solutions are illogical and only within one’s imagination
oh how people would be upset at me for that statement but can they really say what I say is not logical???? there must be causality…
logic to me is great in what we think are simple questions, not the ones we think are profound …yet perhaps the simplest question is the one most profound which goes against how we think
A few people told me my grand rounds upset them….and it should have …..it was meant to be upsetting. My inability to imagine life as stages of souls or intellects etc comes from my own experience and from what I think Socrates said. I am the same person I was as far back as I can remember….so are most of my friends …though our bodies have changed dramatically and not for the better …as all my cells have changed again not for the better…
…so what is it about me that cannot change, what is it about me that sets me in motion, what is it about me that in some ways feels so trapped by this body I have, that just seems to fail me in so many ways including my ability to truly know things….oh what dreams I had about life but they were just dreams ….. I live in reality with real limits yet if I feel something within me that does not change..that is where my comfort arises from and always will
I must believe in a God of kindness and of order and feel I am somehow created within that order…what happens to me at death is beyond me but if I believe in order and kindness and in my One true God…what do I have to fear? as Jesus’s words say why be anxious? easier said than done but I will try to keep my imperfect body from deceiving my soulAugust 2, 2004 at 12:00 am #1422Andrew McCarthyParticipantSometimes people make a jump to something without seeing what they are jumping on. A neurophysiologist usually assumes that life is the brain…just a bunch of neuro-chemical-electrical reactions. A psychiatrist will say perhaps one has to control the id via the ego and superego. A philosopher will often just jump to the idea of a soul as if it is the same thing as as id or ego or sodium channel.
Simply stabs in the dark, declaring certainty where no certainty is found….
before one can consider the soul one must first decide what is the brain, the body, the mind, the self etc…
What do they mean? Are there any agreements of language?
If not everyone stays in the dark, though they see the light come through on their ideas….how such light is blinding!August 8, 2004 at 12:00 am #1427Shawn T MurphyParticipantEdward, I am somewhat confused now about Origen’s position as to souls inhabiting all of creation. In his commentary on the Gospel of John, in some of the few original Greek fragments that have remained, we find Origen accepting the concept of animals profiting from the Word. From book 13 we have Origen clearly saying that Jacob’s livestock believe in Jesus, albeit in a simple manner.
(38) But everyone does not draw water from Jacob’s fountain in the same way. For if Jacob and his sons and his livestock drank from it, (Cf. Jn 4.12) and the Samaritan woman too comes to it and draws water when she thirsts, perhaps indeed Jacob, with his sons, drank in one way with full knowledge, and his cattle drank in another, both more simply and more beast-like, and the Samaritan woman drank in yet another way than Jacob, his sons and his livestock.
(39) For some who are wise in the Scriptures drink as Jacob and his sons. But others who are simpler and more innocent, the so-called “sheep of Christ,” (Cf. Jn 10.26) drink as Jacob’s livestock, and others, misunderstanding the Scriptures and maintaining certain irreverent things on the pretext that they have apprehended the Scriptures, drink as the Samaritan woman drank before she believed in Jesus.At this point it might be good to digress somewhat and admit that the actual works of Origen available to us today are limited. This we know, but I think we must also admit that much of his work has been altered from its original meaning, either by Rufinus in his Latin translations, or by Greek rewritings stemming from the period after Origen’s Anathematism. For example, the Greek version De Principiis (First Principles) which came from an opponent of Origen, Photius, is filled with the dogma of those who condemned Origen. In addition, we must remember that even if we had all of the original writings of Origen, we would not possess his knowledge. Again from book 13 we have Origen’s comments about the unwritten/unwritable Word.
(28) For indeed, Scripture has not contained some of the more lordly and more divine aspects of the mysteries of God, nor indeed has the human voice and the human tongue contained some, as far as the common understandings of the meanings are concerned. “For there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were each written, I suppose not even the world itself would contain the books that would be written.” (Cf. Jn 21.25)
(28) John is forbidden to write when he is about to record all that the seven thunders said. (Cf. Rv 10.4) Paul, too, says that he has heard words that cannot be spoken. (Cf. 2 Cor 12.4.) These were not words that were not permitted to be spoken by anyone, for angels were permitted to speak them, but not men, “for all things are permitted, but not all things are beneficial.” (Cf. 1 Cor 6.12)
(29) And he says that “it is not permitted to man to speak” those things that he had heard, “words that cannot be spoken.” (Cf. 2 Cor 12.4)August 17, 2004 at 12:00 am #1424Edward MooreParticipantShawn, I believe the only reasonable interpretation of Comm. Jn 13.38-39 is that even irrational animals recognize their creator. There is no ground, I posit, for interpreting that passage as supporting the doctrine of the descent of human souls into the bodies of animals. Indeed, we know from Origen’s Comm. Mt 13.1 that he denied that the soul ever leaves its original body to take on another. Since the soul sinned in its original body, it would make no sense, Origen argues, for the soul to undergo penance in a different body.
Regarding Origen’s authentic views, I agree with you that it is exceedingly difficult to know what he actually thought on any given topic. However, I do believe it is possible to reconstruct the basic outlines of his system. The letters of St. Jerome, for example, are honest attempts by that thinker to correct the errors of his former master. He would have had no reason to misquote Origen — indeed, he would have had every reason to quote him accurately, for Jerome’s goal was not to condemn Origen, but to show on what points he went wrong.
August 18, 2004 at 12:00 am #1425Edward MooreParticipantShawn has requested, quite reasonably, that I furnish the relevant qoute from Origen, Comm. Mt 13.1. … so here it is:
… if, by hypothesis, in the constitution of things which has existed from the beginning unto the end of the world, the same soul can be twice in the body, for what cause should be in it? For if because of sin it should be twice in the body, why should it not be thrice, and repeatedly in it, since punishments, in respect of this life, and of the sins committed in it, shall be rendered to it only by the method of transmigration? But if this be granted as a consequence, perhaps there will never be a time when a soul shall not undergo transmigration; for always because of its former sins will it dwell in the body; and so there will be no place for the corruption of the world, at which ‘the heaven and the earth shall pass away'” [Origen, Comm. Mt. 13.1, tr. J. Patrick D.D., ANF, X., pp. 474 f.]
August 18, 2004 at 12:00 am #1428Shawn T MurphyParticipantIn Origen’s discussion of the seed of Abraham in book 20 of his Commentary on John, I have the feeling that he was talking also about himself and his works. He had seen how the Jews failed to grasp the Word taught by Salomon after their exile in Babylon. Origen had also seen how many had failed to grasp the Word of Jesus in his time. It is likely that he foresaw that few would be able to contain the Word that he taught.
(39) Now, we would have accepted everything that has been said about Abraham’s seed and those who resemble him, if we had accepted that the following statements were not made in the literal sense, “I was not sent except to ti1e lost sheep of the house of Israel,” and, “I have not found so great faith, not even in Israel,” (Mt 15.24; Lk 7.9) and all the statements which are similar to these.
(40) These, however, to whom the Word speaks are not likely to receive the Word since he cannot proceed into them because of the surpassing superiority of his greatness; since they are still only seed of Abraham.
(41) But if, in addition to being seed of Abraham, they had cultivated the seed of Abraham and given it over to greatness and growth, the word of Jesus would have proceeded in the greatness and growth of the seed of Abraham.
(42) And you will add that to the present time the Word does not continue in those who have not advanced beyond being seed of Abraham nor come into the state of being his children.
(43) But these also wish to kill the Word, and to crush him, as it were, because they do not contain his greatness.
(44) It is always possible to see those who do not contain the Word because their vessels are too small wishing to kill the unity of the Word’s greatness, since they can contain his members after he has been destroyed and crushed.
(45) If the Word should in this way come to be in those who will destroy him, as it were, he will say, “All my bones were scattered.” (Cf. Ps 21.15) If indeed, then, anyone of us is seed of Abraham, and the Word of God does not continue in him still, let him not seek to kill the Word, but by changing from being seed of Abraham to having become a child of Abraham, he will be able to contain the Word of God whom he did not contain till then. We know that Jerome was overwhelmed by the volume of work produced by Origen. If he felt that few men could not even read the entire body of knowledge that Origen left behind, maybe he was speaking from his own personal experience? It is worth noting that Jerome was declared a saint by the same power that “scattered the bones” of Origen. In my paper “Origen: Prophet or Heretic” I found all nine charges of heresy against Origen by the Emperor to be questionable, as have others before me.We can use Origen’s analysis above to find out if the actions of historical figure and institutions were those of “children of Abraham” or not. Clearly Origen was a “child of Abraham.” But from what I have read about the lives of Jerome and Gregory of Nyssa, they were not as pure as Origen, or certainly not as pure as Jesus. As a matter of fact, what resemblance does a pope or a bishop have to their King? Jesus was a true Servant of God, and therefore humanity as was Origen. Jesus never placed Himself above anyone else, but rather He embraced the sick, weak, downtrodden and outcast, but not the rich.
It is interesting that history calls “the greatest student of Origen” a saint while at the same time declaring his teacher a heretic. By the time of Justinian we know that the church had grown into a very worldly and materialistic organization. It was no longer reaching out, as Origen did, to other beliefs, it was condemning them.
I think we should try to rediscover the entire word taught by Origen before attempting to judge whether it needs modification. As I have said before, so far in my search, I have yet to find a teaching of Origen which is in conflict with the findings of the natural sciences. This is not something that we can say about any church, which was exemplified by the inquisition against Galileo.
August 21, 2004 at 12:00 am #1426Edward MooreParticipantOriginally posted by Shawn
But from what I have read about the lives of Jerome and Gregory of Nyssa, they were not as pure as Origen, or certainly not as pure as Jesus.What exactly do you mean by “pure”? Jerome, I’ll admit, was a rather callous, curmudgeonly man, but Gregory of Nyssa was a quiet, retiring scholar who preferred to be wronged rather than to wrong his fellow man. Let us recall that Origen castrated himself … that is not the action of a “pure” individual. Origen knew scripture very well, and was an accomplished allegorist. I am convinced that he castrated himself because he lacked the self-control necessary to commune in a chaste manner with females at his school, not because he took the words of Matthew over-literally. His superiors were quite justified in stripping him of his priestly rank. Sexual hang-ups and neuroses were quite common in early Christianity, as they are today. Origen was not free from the taint of hatred of the body and fear of the feminine.
Originally posted by Shawn
It is worth noting that Jerome was declared a saint by the same power that “scattered the bones” of Origen. In my paper “Origen: Prophet or Heretic” I found all nine charges of heresy against Origen by the Emperor to be questionable, as have others before me.At no time in history did the Emperor ever possess the authority to brand someone a heretic or to declare someone a saint. This was the sole provenance of the Pope and his synod of bishops (later of the Patriarch of Constanintople in the East for the Orthodox Church). This is a basic fact of Christian history. While it is true that the Emperor had a heavy influence on ecclesiastical decisions, he remained always the steward of the secular state, not of the Church.
Originally posted by Shawn
As I have said before, so far in my search, I have yet to find a teaching of Origen which is in conflict with the findings of the natural sciences. This is not something that we can say about any church, which was exemplified by the inquisition against Galileo.Shawn, I think you place far too much value on the natural sciences. The natural sciences are responsible for the dehumanization of our world. Read the work of Francis Fukuyama, for example, or Matthew Scully. Factory farming, genetic engineering, the unnatural prolongation of human life, the proliferation of human life beyond the bounds of sustenance, over-population, the drugging of children to maintain ‘social order’ … all of these phenomena are anti-personalist onslaughts carried out by scientists against the life of the spirit. There is nothing honorable about nature, Shawn … it is a vast mechanism of slow, tortuous destruction of all that is good and noble. Plato was correct to say that philosophy is the practice for death. Only the life of the intellect is worth my attention. Let the rabble breed and take pleasure in their mindless pursuits. I want no part of it … and, for that matter, neither did Origen … althought lopping off his walnuts was not the best way to go about it …
August 23, 2004 at 12:00 am #1429Shawn T MurphyParticipantWe should investigate this story of Origen’s castration closer. If we look at it in the purely literal sense, then Origen could have followed his own teachings and have done this to put aside a physical desire that was interfering with his spiritual goals. So why would this be a bad thing in the eyes of a Christian since it follows the teachings of Jesus?
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Mark 9:43-47
If we look at the possible spiritual meaning of “Origen castrating himself”, we could find an explanation more reasonable than the pervious. I personally do not believe that Origen physically castrated himself, but rather that he cut himself off from the materialist powers growing in Alexandria at the time; castrating himself from them and everything that they represented. He wanted no part of the worldly church that was forming there, with its pagan background and materialistic view of Christianity. It is hard for me to believe, based on Origen’s continuous separation of the physical from the spiritual in his work, that he would need this physical separation on his body. From his commentary on Romans we find one of his many discussions in which he conveys the need to separate the physical from the spiritual.
(10) Here, then, the man who lives under the law is described by the Apostle as a woman who is under a husband. But he describes the husband as the message of the law, which he nevertheless calls a mortal husband, who is the message of the law according to the letter. But the sense in which he is dead must now be considered. Indeed in this he can seem to be dead since the spiritual understanding excludes and, as it were, kills the bodily understanding and shows that the letter that kills must be abandoned and the life-giving Spirit must be followed. (Cf. 2 Cor 3.6.)
I agree wholeheartedly that very few people can live up to the spiritual demands of scripture in our highly materialistic society, especially for people in positions of power such as politicians, clergy and scientists. Moreover, when a person truly does, it is often relatively easy for the ruling powers (those who were responsible for writing history) to make such people less than they were. Four examples of this stand out in my mind; King Salomon, Socrates, Origen of Alexandria, and Jean d’Arc. The last example is one less discussed in literature, but probably a very good reminder to people how bad things really can get.
(11) Moreover, this husband will be proven to be dead even more plainly in this way. Truly, as long as “the law was bearing the shadow of the good things to come,” (Heb 10.1.) and as long as an earthly image and type of the heavenly worship was being borne injerusalem,14S and the altar continued to function, and the priesthood, the message of the law of the letter seemed to live in the letter. For Christ had not yet entered into the “sanctuary not made with hands” (Heb 9.24.) nor had he approached the inner curtain, which [M1073] the Apostle, when writing to the Hebrews, interprets to be the flesh of Christ. (Heb 9.3; 10.20.) But when the Word became flesh and lived among US, (Cf.Jn 1.14.) his earthly presence in Jerusalem, with its temple and altar and everything that was borne there, was torn down, at that time her husband died, i.e., the law according to the letter. Or will it not rightly be said in this section that the message of the law is dead, since no sacrifices, no priesthood, and no ministries associated with the Levitical order are being offered? It cannot punish the murderer or stone the adulteress, for the Roman authorities avenge themselves on these things. Do you still doubt whether the law according to the letter is dead? No male goes up to appear before the Lord three times a year; (Cf. Ex 23.17; 34.23; Dt 16.16.) no sheep is being slaughtered at the Passover festival in the city that is believed the Lord God had chosen; (Dt 16.2.) no offering of the piles of first-fruits are being celebrated; no leprous diseases and no defilement of sin are being cleansed. Is it possible to doubt in all these things that the letter of the law is dead? (Cf. 2.13.15.)
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(15) Yet the Apostle once again draws in different figures to explain the same thought of interpretation. For he adds, “But while we were in the flesh, the vices of sins, which were through the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now, having died, we have been discharged from the law in which we were being held, so that we might serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.” (Rom 7.5-6.)
(16) In these things Paul appears to have departed from one chamber and entered into another using unmarked and hidden entrances, as we said above using the example of a certain parable. (Cf. 5.1.9.) For whereas above he had been treating the law of the letter, which certainly seemed to pertain only to those who had believed from the circumcision, now, by some kind of unmarked switch, he is discussing the law of the flesh and the vices. [M1075] He does this, no doubt, because such a discussion would seem to pertain to the rest of humanity as well, not merely to those who are from the circumcision. Therefore he says, “For while we were in the flesh.” And indeed, as far as the subject is concerned, he certainly was in the flesh when he was saying these things. But “while we were in the flesh,” that is, while we were living according to the ‘flesh, “the vices of sins, which were through the law, were at work in our members.” Now which law is this through which the vices of sins are at work? Does the law of Moses, even when it is observed according to the letter, generate the vices of sins? On the contrary, it is obvious that he is speaking of that law of the members, a law that resists the law of the mind, (Cf. Rom 7.23.) about which we previously have discussed how “the law entered with the result that sin was abounding.” (Rom 5.20.) This, then, is the very law that causes the vices of sins to abound in those who live according to the flesh, with the result that they bear fruit for death. In fact, that law is in our members in order that, by striving against the law of the mind, it might lead us as captives to sin and offer these fruits to death. Origen: Commentary on the First Epistle to the Romans Book 6, Chapter 7I have recently seen two movies done on the life of Jean, and they exemplify the difficulty that historians have in truly understanding extraordinary people of the past. In contrast from what these Hollywood films have to show us, we know from the people that she fought with and those she fought against that this girl was extraordinary. The veteran soldiers that fought with her said that this young girl could use every implement of war as if she had used each of them for 30 years. She could strategize better than the best generals. The mere sight of her made the blood-thirsty English shake in their boots and run away from her. So why was it so hard for the Church to believe that this girl was sent by God, and guided by the Archangel Michael to free France from English oppression? It is straightforward to understand that the King of France, once Jean put him on the throne, was afraid of the popularity that this girl had achieved. The easiest way for him to “take care of her” was to have the Church declare her a heretic so that she could be burned at the stake. And of course, once she was declared a heretic, any other afflictions that historians wanted to prescribe to her, in order to explain away her greatest were easily accepted.
Our search for truth requires that we question long-held beliefs in order to determine if they are not the root cause for the strife in the world. History has shown us that the greatest wrongs can be accomplished by playing on false beliefs, and it is only by putting those beliefs into question that truth has been able to emerge. This is what Origen did, and taught us to do. But he and the Ionian Greeks taught us that we cannot question without basis or without reason. The only viable reference point given to us is God’s creation; nature. As a reminder, we can listen to Origen in his letter to Gregory.
But my desire for you has been that you should direct the whole force of your intelligence to Christianity as your end, and that in the way of production. And I would wish that you should take with you on the one hand those parts of the philosophy of the Greeks which are fit, as it were, to serve as general or preparatory studies for Christianity, and on the other hand so much of Geometry and Astronomy as may be helpful for the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. The children of the philosophers speak of geometry and music and grammar and rhetoric and astronomy as being ancillary to philosophy; and in the same way we might speak of philosophy itself as being ancillary to Christianity. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/origen-gregory.html
Because of the actions of the church founded by Constantine and Justinian, there have been very few natural scientists that have extended their study to philosophy and to the study scriptures. Likewise, there have been very few clergy who have met Origen’s requirement for the study of Scripture. I agree wholeheartedly that the results have been catastrophic, but their have been a few shining stars come out of the natural sciences: Dr. Edward Bach, Dr. Viktor Frankl, and Erwin Schrödinger to name a few noteworthy. -
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