Early Christian Wisdom › Forums › Past discussions on Origen › Dialog towards the true belief › 2. The Nature of God
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July 20, 2004 at 12:00 am #1267Shawn T MurphyParticipant
In our initial discussions we stumbled on a number of points that we as Christians have trouble understanding each other on. And of course if we cannot understand each other, then how are able to attempt understand the points of view of those with various beliefs? I propose that we start right at the beginning with Andrew’s comment on the First Commandment. I do not imagine that there is any religious person who would not agree with you Andrew; the most important thing is to love God with all your heart. But so many people today already love God with all their heart, so why cannot they seem to get along as children of the same God? They are all so confident that they are doing the Will of God that they are willing to break His Commandments to get the job done.
So I would ask Edward to start us off in the right direction by summarizing Origen’s teaching about the nature of God. It is important to know who God is, but probably more important to know who He is not.
July 26, 2004 at 12:00 am #1415Edward MooreParticipantThe main challenge in describing Origen’s understanding or conception of the nature of God has to do with his lack of a fully developed doctrine of the Trinity. Origen was, as we all know, a subordinationist, i.e., he believed that Jesus is ontologically inferior to the Father, and that the Spirit is inferior to the Son. Yet Origen insists on the full divinity of these three Persons. I think the best way to approach this issue is to draw upon the work of John D. Zizioulas, whose book Being as Communion contains an excellent account of Trinitarian doctrine that I believe is applicable to Origen’s conception.
Zizioulas insists that the nature or substance of God is not a metaphysical substance in the sense of Aristotle’s prime mover or Plato’s Good beyond Being; rather, the substance of God is COMMUNION, realized atemporally and for all eternity in the perfect UNION of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This perfect union became hypostatized in the Person of Jesus Christ, for the purpose of raising all humanity to deification — i.e., the preservation of our humanity in a divine mode of existence. I think Origen would agree with this whole-heartedly.
For we will recall that Origen believed that God is eternally the Creator, that there never was a time when he was not creating. And since His act of Creation arises out of His infinite love, then we may say that the nature of God is to create with a view to communion. This is precisely how Origen envisages our cosmic existence — in a realm created for fallen souls to lead them back to communion with God, and to exist in perfect love.
We know that Origen believed — at least theoretically — that there would be further falls of souls away from God after the restoration (apokatastasis). However, in his Commentary on Romans, he puts forth the suggestion that God’s love, once re-attained in its fullness by redeemed souls, will be enough to prevent any future falls, for God’s love will at that time be something participated in fully by souls who have succeeded in shaping themselves as persons through their lived history in the cosmos.
In other words, in the eskhaton our relationship to God will approach that of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity — with the only exception being our participation in God, whereas the Persons of the Trinity ARE God.
Shawn thinks it is perhaps more important, however, to know what God is NOT. We know from Origen that God is not embodied, and that He is not subject to the vicissitudes of time, although He does participate temporally in the lives of souls. Besides that, Origen is not much of an apophatic theologian. Perhaps it would be a good idea to look at the negative theology of Origen’s greatest pupil, St. Gregory of Nyssa …
August 1, 2004 at 12:00 am #1418Edward MooreParticipantYes, this is the interesting part of studying Origen, his defiance to the Trinitarian view held by the church that declared him a heretic. Knowing that Origen had a much greater depth of understanding of the Old Testament, and the New for that matter, than we do it would be good to pursue his line of thinking further.
Origen recognized in Yahweh, the Word and the Wisdom of God; not God Himself but rather Jesus His Son. Origen saw Yahweh, the Son, personally responsible for the restoration of all fallen souls. This is the heart of his subordination and this posture is exemplified in Luke 9:35. Clearly, God Himself is telling us that He and His Son are two separate beings. Later in the same chapter the disciple are able to glimpse the divinity of Jesus.
We have lost the spiritual view of Origen and must regain it in order to properly understand these passages. I think there are two problems that must be addressed: 1) the acceptance and understanding of a spiritual body, separate and unique to the corporal body; and 2) a proper understanding of the words ‘divine’ and ‘god.’ The first problem area is exemplified by the difference between the corporal body that Jesus used to live His human life and His spiritual body that the disciples saw after His death; after being released from its temporary, corporal residence.
The second problem area is evident in Zwingli’s difficulty with John 1:1 and his need to clarify that “the Word was a divine being and not God.” If we follow Zwingli’s line of thought and define divine as ‘being with God’ or ‘being one with God’ then we see no contradiction in Origin’s subordination principle and his insistence on the divinity of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit(s). Putting this all together, we would come to the following conclusion:
God is the Creator, the Father Who has always existed. He has a divine spiritual body; from which our image was created.
God is not the Son; Who is the Only Begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. The Son also has a divine spiritual body that has existed before all other and He is ‘at one with the Father’, meaning that He knows and does the Will of God, but He is not God.
God is not a holy spirit (The Holy Spirit), who were created through Jesus Christ. The holy spirits have divine spiritual bodies and are independent rational beings. They know and do the Will of God, but they too are not God. They would be synonymous with the modern conception of Angels.
I know that many people have troubles with my use of holy spirits instead of “The Holy Spirit”, so I should explain it a little better. The bible has in it other divine beings that reveal themselves to humanity, as Jesus did to His disciples after His resurrection from the dead; notably the Archangels Gabriel and Michael. We know that at least these first-born retained their divinity through the Fall, and no one would argue that they are not holy spirits. It is also easier to understand that it was many holy spirits who were talking through the people at Pentecost, fulfilling Jesus’ promise to send the Teacher.
Origen taught that God, like the sun, cannot be observed directly, but that we can make inference of Him by His creation. It says the same thing in Psalm 19:1. Do we observe anything in nature that would suggest a Trinitarian-nature of its Creator?
August 4, 2004 at 12:00 am #1414Andrew McCarthyParticipantI am a Christian by birth, by instruction, by wonder.(Such things also in some mysterious way makes me wonder even more about the G-d of the Jews and I question, somewhat frustratingly, why I am not required to have the same reverence for the Almighty, the One we can’t even name much less understand? ) Some things I can control, some I can’t. I know, not by study, that there truly is a God. The Trinity makes sense to me in that there is an unfathomable Oneness. It does not make sense to me to explain it to the point that I think I understand God and His Wisdom.
The Trinity is often better understood by children than by adults-simply something to wonder at. That Yahweh could send a Son is incomprehensible to every human. It is to be wondered at, not explained. His Holy Spirit is unquestionably felt by those who wish to feel it. I am not sure if it is felt by those who attempt to explain it. Explaining things tends to not isolate the higher cognitive faculties but to remove what Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses asked of us- our hearts always pointed towards G-d, not towards ourselves which is a worship of idols in a way…
“11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. “
I think it is a mistake by Christians to think they think correctly (separate from the ability to love correctly) when perhaps they just think heartlessly and love wastingly…….instead of thinking in a way that one can posess goodness one needs to feel goodness in the heart before one can even fathom anything with the proper perspective… humans have a unity too which they refuse to usually consider…August 4, 2004 at 12:00 am #1416Edward MooreParticipantAllow me to begin my reply with a pedantic point that is, nonetheless, of extreme importance. You mention Zwingli’s problem with Jn 1:1 and Zwingli’s ‘need to clarify that “the Word was a divine being and not God.”’ The Greek of that passage reads kai Theos e^n ho Logos: “and God was the Logos.” Note the definite article ho which, in Greek grammar, clearly denotes an identity between the two subjects, in this case, God and the Logos (Christ the Son). This simple grammatical fact led the Church Fathers to utilize this passage in their various works defending the doctrine of the Trinity — and let us be honest, these Hellenes knew their own language far better than Zwingli did! The identification by John of God the Father with Christ the Son is beyond doubt — whether or not one agrees with John theologically is another matter; grammatically, the evidence of identification is directly before us. I would also mention the final passages of Jn 8, where Jesus declares, “before Abraham was, I AM.” When we compare the Greek of this passage with that of Ex 3:14 (LXX), we see a conscious linguistic identification by John.
Shawn, you later pose the question: “Do we observe anything in nature that would suggest a Trinitarian-nature of its Creator?” My answer is, quite simply, yes — we observe our own minds at work, and in this there is a clear Trinitarian nature, as philosophers from Plotinus to Hegel to Husserl have recognized. The Trinitarian or triadic nature of our cognition is divided by these philosophers roughly as follows: THOUGHT — THOUGHT-THINKING-ITSELF — SUBJECTIVITY (or the synthesis of the objectified and the subjective Self). In THOUGHT we see the creative or generative aspect of Life, which corresponds to the Father; in self-reflection or THOUGHT-THINKING-ITSELF we find an objectification of our consciousness, corresponding to the willing subjection of the Son to material nature, in becoming a servant (doulos) and emptying Himself (kenoo^ for our salvation (Phil 2:7); in SUBJECTIVITY we arrive at a union of our mind’s ability to know things as well as its ability to know itself — this is the union of two natures, such as we find in the union of God in humanity, a task initiated by the Father, enacted by the Son, and completed by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
My position, then, is that held by the Orthodox Christian Church: that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (hupostaseis) sharing a single nature (ousia). Origen, of course, writing at a very early period of Christian theological development, simply did not possess the conceptual or linguistic tools that became available only after several centuries of dialogue and debate (not to mention a few Councils). However, along with Valentinus in the Greek tradition and Tertullian in the Latin, Origen is among the first Christian thinkers to have taken a philosophical interest in the doctrine of the Trinity. His decision to adopt, largely uncritically, the categories of Platonism, both helped and hindered him (in the long run) in his desire to establish a philosophically viable solution to the mystery of the Trinitarian God.
TO BE CONTINUED …
August 6, 2004 at 12:00 am #1419Shawn T MurphyParticipantIt is interesting Edward that you chose the mind as your example of a triad in nature. I would think that Socrates and Origen would have excluded this part of nature in their search for signs of God. This is the only part of nature which contains the free will, which you pointed out earlier. Therefore, the mind or intellect is not something created by God, but rather the fruit of our application of His greatest gift: free will. I would have thought that one would look to the various realms of nature in order to find signs of a triad. Looking in the seas below, on land, in the sky and in the heavens above a triad is hard to find. When we search these realms of nature, firstly, we find individuality; even down to the lowest levels, such as individual snowflakes and the uniqueness of each piece of pollen. Secondly, we find a benevolent hierarchy, with kings of land, sea, and sky keeping balance with those he depends upon for his survival. Finally, we often find dualism and polarity. We find identical twins, but never identical triplets.
Occurrences of triadic behavior or symbolism did come out of the pagan cultures of old though. I am not an expert on pagan cultures, but from the web I have this description of Luxor:
“On the east bank of the Nile at Luxor lies the magnificent Luxor Temple which was dedicated to the great god Amun-Re, his wife Mut and their son Khonsu (the moon god) – together representing the Theban triad.” http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~ancient/luxtem1.htm
Knowing what practices went on at this temple, I think we can all agree that it had nothing to do with God the Father in Heaven.The pagan Greeks and Romans also had their triad in Neptue (Poseidon). Again from the web we have:
“Neptune was the name that ancient Romans gave to the Greek god of the sea and earthquakes, Poseidon. He was the brother of Jupiter (Zeus) and of Pluto (Hades). After the defeat of their father Saturn (Cronos), the three brothers divided the world in three parts to be ruled by one of the three brothers. Jupiter took the sky, Neptune the sea and Pluto the underworld. Neptune had the reputation for having a violent temper. Tempests and earthquakes were a reflection of his furious rage. He was depicted as a bearded men holding a trident and seated in a seashell drawn by sea-horses. One day Neptune saw the water nymph Amphitrite dancing in the island of Naxos and fell in love with her. He promptly asked her to marry him but unfortunately she refused. However, not discouraged by Amphitrite refusal, Neptune sent one of his servant, a dolphin to look for her. The dolphin found her, and pleaded Neptune’s cause so persuasively that she changed her mind. As a reward for finding and returning Amphitrite to him, Neptune immortalized the dolphin by placing it in the heavens as the constellation Dolphinus. Neptune and Amphitrite had several children. Among them was Triton whose name was given in 1846 by William Lassell to the principal moon of the planet Neptune.” http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/mythology/Definitions_gods/Neptune_def.html
Again, I would hope that we could agree that the ‘god of the bitter sea’ also has nothing to God the Father in Heaven.I would like to also add my reverence of God, and I do realize Andrew that I should do it more often. I agree whole heartedly that we cannot ‘know God’; we are far too far away from Him. Origen noted in his discourse on John 1:1 that the only reason that Jesus ‘knows God’ is because of His constant closeness to God. Those who have ventured too far away no longer ‘know God’, but this gives me hope. Hope that the opposite is true and if we can move closer to God that we can start to again learn to ‘know Him.’
August 17, 2004 at 12:00 am #1417Edward MooreParticipantShawn, I certainly agree with you that our mind is the seat of our free will. However, I disagree with your position that the mind (intellect, nous) is not created by God. In the Orthodox Christian tradition, one of the main debates of the patristic era centered around how many minds were present in the Incarnate Christ. Some argued that He possessed two minds, one human and one divine. This was rejected as unorthodox, for it implied that He also had two wills, which would have meant that He did not unite the two natures — human and divine — in a single hypostasis, but rather contained both natures separately within His person. If there is no union of natures, as St. Athanasius pointed out, then there is no salvation. The whole point, of course, is that our created nature had to be united with the uncreated nature of God.
In the context of Origen’s thought it is exceedingly clear that he considered the mind as having been created by God, albeit not in the manner that He created the body, which the minds took on after the fall when they became souls. Origen states clearly that only God is uncreated, with the explanation that the minds were created atemporally, for there never was a time when God was not the creator. This, I think, is a very important — and difficult — point to consider.
August 17, 2004 at 12:00 am #1420Shawn T MurphyParticipantYes Edward, God is truly The Creator and has always been, but we know that God gave creative ability to His Son; Who created all that is good. And didn’t God give creative power to pretty much each of His children? Certainly artists and musicians have some creative ability.
Even the fallen souls have retained some of their creative ability, for it would be hard to comprehend that the implements of torture were created by God, or by any divine being. I am pretty certain that the concept of slavery is a creation of the king of this world, not the King of Heaven or God. Come to think about it, could God have created any of the vices? God is Love and, therefore, not capable of hate.
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