I asked you to remind me again which article was it that I promised to comment on but you never did.
I would love to have a logical discussion about why you think Origen and Beatrice Brunner have more truth
than Joseph Smith but you always ignore everything I present as evidence for his calling as a true prophet.
I agree that Origen was closer to the early Christian teachings than many later scholars and apologists, but
I believe Origen was wrong on many things as well.
The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants correct many misinterpretations of scripture by modern Christians
and are scripture. I tried to show you that, but you ignored my evidence. If you spent as much time studying our
modern scriptures as you have on Origen and Beatrice Brunner, you would see that.
I can see you want to discuss other things, but to me these are the most important issues we can discuss.
If you don’t agree then we probably need to end this discussion now and agree to disagree politely. Let me know
what you want to do.
Michael Hickenborham

As I have indicated previously, God did not create our essence that we call intelligence. That already existed. God took our intelligences and created spirit bodies for them. The spirit bodies are perfect and, like our essence, are eternal. In order for our spirits to actually become like God, we had to be given mortal bodies in his image, and experience what mortal life can teach us. Life is a school that can teach us to be loving, kind, charitable, have faith, and learn to be Christ-like and therefore God-like.
Irenaeus [an ancient bishop and apologist, 115-200 A.D.] had this to say on to say on the subject of becoming like God:

If the word became a man it was so men may become gods [“Against Heresies,” bk. 5, pref.] Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.” …For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then all that was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality [“Against Heresies,” 4.38. Cp 4.11 (2): “But man receives progression and increase towards God. For as God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress towards God.”].

So, our spirits bodies that God gave us were perfect, but what made each spirit unique still needed to learn what only mortal life could teach. We all gain knowledge and understanding “line upon line, precept upon precept” (Isa. 28:10; 2 Nephi 28:30; D&C 98:12; 128:21). Life on earth enables us to do that more quickly than life as a spirit.

Our mortal bodies are also imperfect. That’s part of the mortal trial we have to endure. But when we are all resurrected, our bodies will be made perfect just as Jesus Christ’s glorified body was perfect. It will then be immortal.

I believe Origen misunderstood the relationship between angels and spirits. The scriptures identify angels with ministering spirits. Psalms 104:4 rhetorically asks, “Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire…?” (see also Heb. 1:7) and Hebrews 1:13-14 reads, “But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits; sent forth to minister for them who shall be the heirs of salvation?” As has already been shown, we all existed as spirits before birth (see Matt. 18:10; note angels in this verse should be spirits). And men like angels often act as messengers of God (Hag. 1:13; Mal. 2:7; 3:1; Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 7:27). That angels are in appearance as men and were actually called men by inspired writers is also attested to in scripture (Gen. 18:1-2; 19:1, 15; Ezek. 40:1-4; Matt. 28:2-6; Mark 16:5; Luke 24:3-4; John 20:1-12; Acts 1:10; Heb. 13:2; Rev. 21:17).
Joseph Smith taught that angelic messengers can be either resurrected men or spirits who are not yet resurrected (D&C 129:1-3; History of the Church, 4:425). LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie further subdivides these two general groups into five categories (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 35-37) while at the same time making it clear that all “angels of the Almighty are chosen from among his offspring and are themselves pressing forward along the course of progression and salvation”… “because angels are of the same race as man and God…” (see also D&C 130:5)
Some Christians mistakenly conclude that angels are “sexless” because Matthew 22:30 seems to support this belief. This scripture implies nothing about the ability of angels to procreate but only states that they are unmarried (single). Latter-day Saints believe that marriage and procreation are only part of mortal life and exaltation so it seems clear that unexalted angels, whether pre-existent spirits or resurrected beings will necessarily be single (See D&C 132:15-17).
Your article at https://www.glz.org/en/spiritual-world-online/issues/spiritual-world-2-2019 does not reflect Bible teachings on angels and spirits and is therefore incorrect. I think the source of Joseph’s information is not God. Does Joseph teach about Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world? John taught “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God” (1 Jn. 4:2). Did Joseph confess that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, came in the flesh? The Book of Mormon and modern scripture teach this repeatedly (1 Nephi 10:11; 15:13; Ether 3:9; D&C 18:11; 20:1, 26; 93:4, 11) Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:36-39). The Book of Mormon teaches, “…that Christ… should take upon him the image of man, and… should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth” (Mosiah 7:27). Latter-day Saints beliefs affirm the importance of obtaining a physical body and of the resurrection of that body. Christ as the first fruits of the resurrection showed the rest of mankind the way. Since Latter-day Saints confess and teach that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, we must, as John said, be “of God.”
You need to make sure that the teachings you accept are based on scripture. If not, they should be discarded.
Michael Hickenbotham

You said, “Joseph taught about every aspect of Jesus, the Son of God over 35 years. He explained every teaching of Jesus, as Origen did. You say these things are not biblical and reading one of the 2400 lectures.”

I don’t have time to study 2400 lectures to understand your worldview. I have received a spiritual witness Joseph Smith was a prophet and my studied through 60+ years have confirmed that witness. One of the things Joseph Smith learned and taught is that we should be wary of evil spirits that come to us teaching another gospel other than what is contained in scripture. Galatians 1:6-8; D&C 46:7; 50:1-2, 15. 31-32;; 93:25; 129:4-8. You likely know Galatians 1:6-8, here are the rest from the D&C:

5:1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, and give ear to the voice of the living God; and attend to the words of wisdom which shall be given unto you, according as ye have asked and are agreed as touching the church, and the spirits which have gone abroad in the earth.
2 Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world.
15 And then received ye spirits which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God; and in this are ye justified?
31 Wherefore, it shall come to pass, that if you behold a spirit manifested that you cannot understand, and you receive not that spirit, ye shall ask of the Father in the name of Jesus; and if he give not unto you that spirit, then you may know that it is not of God.
32 And it shall be given unto you, power over that spirit; and you shall proclaim against that spirit with a loud voice that it is not of God
93:23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
129:4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
This sounds a lot like your Joseph to me.

You said, “I understand that you do not want to leave the doctrines of your church. I was hoping that a fellow engineer could see the lack of logic in the world view you presented. Oh well.”

Please demonstrate the lack of logic. I sincerely think it is more logical than what you’re saying. I have demonstrated that Joseph Smith had witnesses to all the important restoration events including those where priesthood keys were restored by Peter, James, and John and John the Baptist. Many saw anget at the Kirtland temple dedication. The Book of Mormon is a complex book full of Hebraisms and chiasms and computer wordprint analysis shows it was written by more that 2o + authors, none of which was Joseph Smith or the scribes he had. Take a look at the references for this video at:
https://bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/watch-evidence-of-the-book-of-mormon-internal-complexity

and these:

Seven Terrific Book of Mormon Videos

Together, these seven videos present powerful evidence that the Book of Mormon:
· is a masterpiece of beautiful ancient literature

· has incredible depth and complexity

· came from plates whose physicality is attested historically

· was miraculously translated by the gift and power of God

· is supported by solid archaeological discoveries in modern Yemen

· exhibits multiple authorship styles

· was almost certainly not written by Joseph Smith or any of his contemporaries

Can any of the 2400 lectures from Joseph meet these or other scientific tests?

You said, “Good luck trying to convince atheists with your doctrines. They are not much different than the other religions offer. I am very happy that I have been able to bring athiest to Jesus through the loving teachings of Joseph, Origen and Jesus.” Actually, I know several atheist converts to the Church of Jesus Christ.Some of them are just as convinced I am that the restoration took place as Joseph Smith described it. The Spirit has witnessed to them as to me that the restored gospel is true. Our church is full of scientists, engineers, and scholars of all types. Some of them have left their own witness to their faith at: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/testimonies/scholars
Can you show me a similar group who have testified of the message you are spreading?

Michael Hickenbotham

You: We seem to be talking past each other.

Me: I would say one of us isn’t recognizing or understanding the points the other is making.

You: To clarify the discussion, can you please tell me what you mean by restoration? What did Joseph Smith restore in your opinion?

Me:The restoration included:
the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood and the keys associated with those priesthoods. The priesthood is the authority to perform ordinances like baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. in the name of God and his Son.
God’s purpose for sending us to earth (Moses 1:39)
many plain and precious doctrines removed or left out of the Bible. (1 Nephi 13:29, 32). The Book of Mormon and modern revelation restores many of those plain gospel truths (1 Nephi 13:35-36, 40).
The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: Priesthood, the Word of God, and the Temple

the church organization (Ephesians 2:19-20 and 4:11-15)

modern revelation through prophets called of God

the book of Abraham and the book of Moses

the covenant of baptism

baptism for the dead by proxy

temple marriage and covenants

a correct understanding of many Bible scriptures

a correct understanding of the degrees of glory

a correct understanding of the plan of salvation or plan of happiness

a correct understanding of our pre-mortal existence (intelligence, spirits, etc,)

a correct understanding of the Spirit World and hell

the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Articles of Faith – 1st principles and ordinances) (see https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Mormons-think-they-have-the-restored-gospel-when-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-it-to-begin-with)

the importance of agency in God’s plan

There’s actually more, but I think those are the essentials.

You: Btw. I know how to test the spirits (1 John 4:1-4) and have heard many prophesies that come from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan).

Me: I suspect the things that were revealed through your Joseph were meant to keep you from accepting the Restored Gospel and Joseph Smith as a prophet.

You: Also, Joseph and Lene delivered 100x the volume of knowledge that Smith did with no internal contradiction and completely in harmony with God’ creation.

Me: Can you summarize that knowledge as I have done for the restoration above?

I noticed you didn’t comment on any of the evidence for the truthfulness of the restoration. Like the fact that:
“Many a pretender to the prophetic office has claimed to entertain angels or to have spoken with God, but who other than Joseph Smith introduced his angels to others? Joseph Smith introduced Moroni to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris (Testimony of the 3 Witnesses – https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/three?lang=eng). He was never alone when priesthood or keys were restored…. He and Sydney Rigdon received the revelation on the degrees of glory together. Together they saw legions of angels, along with the Father and the Son (see D&C 76:21-23 – https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng). Oliver Cowdery was with Joseph Smith when John the Baptist came to restore the Aaronic Priesthood (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/13?lang=eng), and when Peter, James, and John came to restore the Melchizedek Priesthood (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng). Oliver was also with Joseph Smith when Christ came to accept the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, and Moses, Elias, and Elijah restored their keys, powers, and authorities (D&C 110 – https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/110?lang=eng).” (Sons and Daughters of God, pp. 194-195)

Please comment on the above and the Book of Mormon evidences in the video links I included.

Michael Hickenbotham